GEOFF BENNETT: We want to dig deeper now on another major c... upholding state bans on transgender athletes# competing in girls and women's sports.

For .. We're joined by Katie Barnes,# who covers sports and gender as a senior writer for ESPN.

They're also the author of "Fair# Play: Trans Athletes and the Fight for Fairness."

Thanks ... KATIE BARNES, Senior Writer,# ESPN: Thanks for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: So help us understand how## wide of an impact this ruling will# have.

Who exactly wi.. KATIE BARNES: So I think the important thing# is to say that it's not a nationwide ruling.## The scope of the ruling is limited to the 27# states who have this legislation in place,## specifically the cases in Idaho and West Virginia.

The court held that those laws are allowed to# stand.

And so that implies that the other 25## states of similar legislation will also be# able to keep their laws on the books.

But## it does not go a step further by saying that# not only did these laws not violate Title IX,## but by having transgender-inclusive# policy, that is a violation of Title IX.

So for the remaining states that don't have# such laws on the books, their legal outcome,## they're able to decide that for themselves and# keep the perspective that they have had in place.

GEOFF BENNETT: And what does this ruling mean for## the plaintiffs personally, a 15-year-old# in West Virginia?

The other is a fo.. Boise State University student in Idaho.

KATIE BARNES: So for the 15-year-old in West## Virginia, her career is effectively over in girls'# sports.

If she wants to, she is able to compete## in the men's category and the boys category.

But# she has said that she does not want to do that.

So, in terms of being able to# move forward and finish out her## high school athletic career in girl# sports, this ruling effectively ends## that possibility for her.

In terms# of the other plaintiff in Idaho,## she actually had petitioned the court to# remove herself from the case by saying she## did not want to pursue any additional athletic# opportunities at Boise State University and just## wanted to finish out her academic career there# and get her degree and move on with her life.

And it's worth speaking to the# fact that that particular plaintiff## spoke to the breadth of what types of sports# are governed by these laws.

She originally## filed her -- filed her challenge# on the basis of wanting to try out## for the women's cross-country team at# Boise State, did not make that team,## and then continued her challenge on the basis# of wanting to play club sports at Boise State.

So it's not just competitive# interscholastic athletics that## are affected by this legislation.

It's also# club sports, as well as intramural sports,## at the collegiate, as well# as the school sports levels.

GEOFF BENNETT: The states and advocacy# groups that defended these bans,## how are they interpreting# today's ruling by the court?

KATIE BARNES: I think, for those who are in# favor of this legislation, they are quite happy.

It's been a lot of celebratory messages.

I have# heard from Barbara Ehardt, who wrote H.B.500 out## of Idaho, and she called it a significant victory.# And so for folks who want to see transgender girls## not able to play girls' sports, they are# feeling very good about this ruling today.

GEOFF BENNETT: Justice Brett Kavanaugh,# who once coached girls' basketball,## he underlined the importance of the athletes'# dedication.

He tried to -- it appears,## to speak to the humanity of all involved.

He wrote: "No student athlete# on either side of the issue,## whether a biological female or transgender,# deserves to be ostracized or vilified."

What does fairness in competition look like# now, both for the transgender athletes who## want an opportunity to compete, and for# the girls and women who believe it's## unfair to compete against athletes who are# biologically male?

Based on your reporting,## is there a framework or an approach that# can meaningfully account for both concerns?

KATIE BARNES: Interesting question, because# prior to H.B.500 passing in Idaho in 2020... GEOFF BENNETT: And we should explain H.B.500.# This was the first law that was passed,## and it banned transgender girls from competing in# women's sports at the school and collegiate level.

KATIE BARNES: Yes, that's right.

And, yes, before that law, there was# .. was exploring those questions and also# allowed for the answer to be different## at various levels of competition# and through various age groups.

And so there were high school associations# with different policies from the Olympics,## et cetera, et cetera.

And even# within national governing bodies,## you saw different policies for different# age groups and seriousness of competition.

And with the passage of H.B.500, that really# reframed the context for where these battles## would be fought and started to really reshape# the policy and legislative landscape around## transgender athlete eligibility.

A lot# of that conversation has fallen away.

And so to answer that question, it's very# challenging because I think that there are## those who see any inclusion or allowance of# a transgender girl or woman to compete in the## girls and women's category as a functional# failure of policy.

And there are those who## would like to see transgender girls, women# be eligible under some circumstances.

And those two perspectives are# very, very hard to reconcile.## And I think some folks would like science to# answer this question for us.

And it's very## complicated.

It's a small sample size# when it comes to transgender athletes.

And the science is still new in terms# of the effects of hormone treatments,## and at what age group, et cetera, and how that# can impact or not athletic advantage in sports,## and at what level we should care about having# more restrictive or more inclusive policy.

GEOFF BENNETT: Katie Barnes, senior writer# for ESPN and the author of "Fair Play:## Trans Athletes and the Fight for Fairness."

Katie, thanks again for your time this evening.

KATIE BARNES: Really appreciate it.